Katniss

[lambstew]

I find the whole trilogy is a story of how a strong, independent, (even carefree and happy?) teenage girl, whose world revolves around providing for the handful of people that she loves, being forcibly thrusted into the cruel struggles and manipulations in the world of the grown ups. As the story progresses more and more cracks opened up in her character. Initially she was resolved not to kill as a way of defiance. In the second book she didn't hesitate to kill. By the third book she not only had no hesitation to kill, but seeks it in her vengeance against Snow. Although her deeper believes remain intact, like her absolute devotion to people she loves, and her desire for justice.

The pressure of being the Mockingjay and her self guilt over the dyings took increasing toll on her. Anxieties became permanent and PTSD sets in. Each emotional trauma she experienced was more serious than the one before. To a point that it became so, so sad to read her reciting "My name is Katniss Everdeen... I should be dead." as she struggles to hold onto her sanity and will to live. At her absolute abyss following Coin's assassination, she too died albeit emotionally. Just like the phoenix in her hallucination, the fire and the associated hate and anger within her grew increasingly stronger until it finally engulfed her. It's fitting that she chose Peeta, who rather than the equally fiery Gale is what she needed in order to reborn. Although emotionally and physically battered at such a young age (only 17!!) it's comforting that the story ends with her on the road to recovery and eventually finding peace and happiness again.

[Satsuma]

While I agree with most of your take on Katniss, I did want to quibble a bit with your take on her in Mockingjay. 

"Initially she was resolved not to kill as a way of defiance. In the second book she didn't hesitate to kill. By the third book she not only had no hesitation to kill, but seeks it in her vengeance against Snow....Just like the phoenix in her hallucination, the fire and the associated hate and anger within her grew increasingly stronger until it finally engulfed her."

I think this is a bit oversimplified, and a little unfair to Katniss.  First of all, she DOES express hesitation to kill in CF, when she asks Peeta, despairingly, "how do we kill these people"?  And while I agree that in MJ, she does become obsessed with killing Snow, and she does shoot an innocent civilian during her mission.  But MJ also shows many examples of a Katniss who DOES hesitate to kill.  What about her actions in the Nut, in which she certainly DOES hesitate to kill, and actually chooses words over weapons to persuade the majority of D2 residents to break from the Capitol?  How about her instinctive repugnance when she first finds out about Gale and Beetee's design for a weapon that specifically targets civilian medics?  How about her refusal to kill Peeta and Gale despite their own stated wishes that she do so? 

Your words also make me wonder; are you among the fans who consider Katniss to have voted "yes" to Coin's proposal to subject Capitol kids to the Hunger Games, because she was filled with hate and anger?  Did it ever occur to you that she voted the way she did to convince Coin that she was completely broken and subjugated, so she could catch her off-guard and kill her with her final arrow, even though this meant she gave up her chance for revenge against Snow?

[lambstew]

Wowowo... Satsuma, I'm new to this forum and have only posted 3 posts prior to yesterday. So please don't put words into my mouth and speculate on my motives.

While what I wrote may seem simplistic to you, but I wanted to avoid writing overly long pieces. I think you get my drift of what I was saying about her character as the story progresses and she faced with more and more dilemmas over her actions and decisions she has to make. Still a minor, she is subjected to responsibilities, pressures, moral dilemmas, injustices, and life and death struggles that would crack most of us much sooner. This makes her STRONG and I absolutely adore her for it, but everyone has a limit on how much one could take

I never said she was evil. I did say she cares and still believes in justice. She genuinely feels responsible for those she cares, and hence feels personally responsible for all those who died in her name. The death of Prim was seen as a failure of her duty to keep her safe. There is a big difference between her and Gale. Both she and Gale have hatred against the Capitol, but Gale's hatred is far more intense than hers. He believes in achieving an end through any means, and even beyond what's necessary, like his desire to kill off everyone inside the Nut when the objective was already met. Whereas she has a sense of right and wrong, and empathy that Gale seems to lack. She knows that there are lines that should never be crossed, and actors who should never be put into the dispute of some. Which is why she is so against the games, and abhorrent at the killing of those children by Gale's bombs to a point that she could never forgive him. This is also why her split-second decision to kill the innocent bystander affected her as she contemplated what she has become.

As for your thoughts on why she said "yes" to Coin's games, the first question is 'no', the rest mine are with yours, but you said it for me already.

[Ivana2804]

I find the whole trilogy is a story of how a strong, independent, (even carefree and happy?) teenage girl, whose world revolves around providing for the handful of people that she loves, being forcibly thrusted into the cruel struggles and manipulations in the world of the grown ups. As the story progresses more and more cracks opened up in her character. Initially she was resolved not to kill as a way of defiance. In the second book she didn't hesitate to kill. By the third book she not only had no hesitation to kill, but seeks it in her vengeance against Snow. Although her deeper believes remain intact, like her absolute devotion to people she loves, and her desire for justice.

I don't see Katniss' development throughout the trilogy the way you do. First off, she was not initially resolved not to kill - quite the contrary, she went to the Games thinking that she will have to kill any of the Tributes, including Peeta, which is why she felt bad about "owing" him, and she was convinced that any of them would try to kill her. She was focused on survival and getting back home to her family. During the Games, her way of thinking changes due to her relationships with Rue (who reminds her of Prim) and Peeta - but she still doesn't trust him when the second rule change is announced and thinks he's going to kill her and goes for her bow. It's only when she realizes that he wants to let her kill him so she could win that she decides that she can't kill him and that she has to force the Gamemakers to make them both Victors - and that's after having developed a close relationship and some real feelings for him. In CF, she says to Gale "If I could have hated him in the Arena, I would now be an only Victor and we wouldn't be in this trouble" - which confirms that it wasn't something she would have just done for anyone. And, to be fair, Katniss was also not put in the situation to kill any of the Tributes other than the Careers, and that after they had attacked her - something that many people have criticized about the first book/movie. Most of the time, she didn't have to make a really tough choice, except at the end with the berries when she found the third way.

Furthermore, she very much does hesitate to kill in the second book - the line that Satsuma quoted shows that - and while she's again convinced that she will have to kill people in the Arena (this time, not to survive, but to keep Peeta alive), she kills even less people than the first time, IIRC just one and again it's a Career attacking her group and having killed one of her allies (THG: Marvel; CF: Gloss). One may say that she was again not put in the situation to make the toughest choices due to the alliance. And she actually cares about her allies and feels bad, e.g., when Mags sacrifices herself, instead of being glad there's one less person she would have to kill. It's debatable whether she's more ready to kill in MJ or she simply is finally put by the writer in the position where she has to kill unknown people the way she wasn't in the first two books.

At the same time, we see that, despite her initial belief that she would be able to kill anyone to get back to Prim in THG, she feels guilty about every person she's killed and every person whose death she feels she indirectly caused in one way or another, and that guilt grows and torments her more and more throughout the trilogy.

I think that the real development in Katniss' character is in the way her scope widens and her view of the world becomes less black and white; at the beginning, she only cares about a few people, about her family - Prim, her mom, and Gale (who's an honorary family member of sorts) and she's only sure she loves one person, Prim, and she just wants to survive and help them survive, and she's closed down to anything else. Then throughout the trilogy, she starts to open up to more people, find friends, fall in love, learns more about the people from other districts and the Capitol and goes from seeing the Capitol people the same way Gale sees them to seeing them as real human beings who might not all be bad; she realizes that she's a symbol for so many people in Panem and starts to care about the fate of the country, partially out of anger and defiance, partially out of caring for people (that duality is always present; she becomes obsessed with her hatred of Snow in MJ, but at the same time she's trying to protect innocent people). She starts to care at first for just a few people outside her narrow circle, and by MJ, she can empathize and care about the fates of people from D2 that she doesn't even know. She also learns that people are often not what they seem at first, that many of her quick judgments were wrong, and that good and bad guys can't always be that easily separated.

[Satsuma]

lambstew: I'm sorry I jumped to conclusions about what your take was on the vote.  I probably should have left out that part, or phrased it in a less accusatory way.  I did not get the feeling that you thought Katniss was evil, and it seems that you see her as being forced into a very difficult set of circumstances that mitigate her culpability a lot, but the way you describe her being engulfed by a fire associated with hate and anger, was very different from how I saw her progress through the series.  Ivana pretty much explained my take on Katniss better than I could.

I think one reason it may seem that Katniss becomes more willing to kill as the story progresses, is that unlike the first book, when she doesn't even question the "kill or be killed" Hunger Games setup, and doesn't sit around questioning her own morality, by the time CF and MJ comes around, she has become almost hyper-sensitive to her perceived sense of morality or lack thereof.  She is disappointed by the bloodthirstiness of the tributes who battle at the Cornucopia, and when Finnick makes his comment about "no one in this arena was a victor by chance, except maybe Peeta", she quickly concludes that Finnick knows that Peeta is "truly, deep-down better than the rest of us", thinks Peeta would have attempted negotiations with the Careers instead of shooting to kill, etc.

Yet, we find out in MJ that when faced with a very similar situation to Katniss killing Gloss after Gloss killed Wiress, Peeta certainly did NOT attempt negotiations with Brutus after Brutus killed Chaff; he killed him, instead. (Though Peeta never made an official alliance with Chaff, and didn't know he was part of the rebel plot, they are described as being friendly and having lunch together during training).  I think SC meant for that parallel to be deliberate, as well as a hint that, "Hey, maybe Peeta ISN'T this paragon of virtue that Katniss tends to think he is!"

While this is not a Peeta topic, I think some fans idealize him just as much as Katniss does at times, but I really don't think his sense of morality and ethics are that superior to Katniss's.  This actually is relevant to Katniss character discussion, though, because unlike many fans, I always saw Katniss as having more in common with Peeta than Gale in terms of core character and values.  Many of Katniss's similarities with Gale are about them being in similar circumstances; growing up in the Seam, being the oldest child forced to become "head of the household" with many family members dependent on them for survival, etc. 

Now, Peeta grew up much differently, as the youngest son of a family that is materially better off, and never had that responsibility to put food on the table for others.  (Though he likely grew up in a much more emotionally stressful home due to his parents' unhappy marriage and his abusive mother.)  And he also does have the gift for words that Katniss lacks.  But both Peeta and Katniss are willing to sacrifice themselves for loved ones, and detest the targeting of innocents for slaughter. Gale -- not so much.  (Though to be fair, he's never put in a situation where he had to sacrifice himself, and it seems he saw everyone in the Capitol as inherently evil, not innocent; somewhat like the justification many RL terrorists/"freedom fighters" give for targeting civilians.)

Anyway, note that even in the THG scene in which Peeta makes idealistic statements about not being a piece in the Games, not being owned, etc...when asked directly by Katniss if that means he won't kill anyone, he admits "when the time comes I'm sure I'll kill like anyone else".  And in his first MJ interview, when he asks Caesar to imagine himself in the arena, he doesn't present himself as anymore moral or ethical than the other tributes, except for his goal being not his own survival, but that of Katniss. He even says, "like it or not, you're going to have to do some killing". 

Also, note that Peeta's weapon of choice is a knife (which he may have used to attack someone in the 74th HG as well, since the Careers speak of his being "handy with that knife"), which actually requires him to get up close to the person he kills, whereas Katniss has some physical distance between her and the target when she shoots her arrows, which tend to make for more emotional distance as well.   

Anyway, back to Katniss.  It seems that for most of CF and MJ, while she spends a lot of the time thinking about and contemplating killing various people, for the most part, she does NOT actually going through with it. She contemplates killing Peeta, contemplates killing Gale, contemplates killing Snow, etc...but does NOT actually kill any of them!   Interestingly, the first time we see her fantasizing about killing Snow, is in CF, right after she contemplates killing Finnick (CF Chapter 23, page 239).

"What I really need is for someone to take out Finnick for me, since I don't think I can do it personally. Not after all he's done for Peeta. I think about maneuvering him into some kind of encounter with the Careers. It's cold, I know. But what are my options? Now that we know about the clock, he probably won't die in the jungle, so someone's going to have to kill him in battle. Because this is so repellent to think about, my mind frantically tries to change topics. But the only thing that distracts me from my current situation is fantasizing about killing President Snow. Not very pretty daydreams for a seventeen-year-old girl, I guess, but very satisfying."

Far from showing a Katniss who is a cold-blooded killer, in this scene, she's trying to distract herself from the thought of killing Finnick, which she finds "repellent", by the thought of killing Snow, who (at this point in her development) she sees as evil and deserving of death, and therefore, someone she can contemplate killing WITHOUT feeling guilty or uncomfortable about it. 

[lambstew]

No worries Satsuma.

I agree that in the first book Katniss never had to face tough moral dilemmas and all her kill could be considered self defense, like dropping the wasp nest on the careers and shooting Marvel. It's arguable whether the nest kills could be attributed to her as her intention was probably just to drive them away so she could escape. In the movies she was caught face to face with Foxface but offered her the chance to escape. Since SC was involved in the making of the movie it could be an angle of her character not told by the book. But as much as much as she was hoping that the Quell tributes would unite against Snow, being a hunter, a fighter and a carer, lethal force would be an option the moment she feels her and her loved ones are threatened.

I think that, along the line of Ivana, the development of her character really lies in the changes of circumstance and her increased exposure to the outside world around her. The story started with her in her own small world in the woods of D12, to the arena of the 74th games, to being a national icon, and ultimately right into midst of a nation wide war zone where she unwittingly became the very piece of the game Peeta talked about. Her character and core values has been tested and to her credit remained largely intact, but the tough decisions and choices she had to make in situations where she clearly had no control over placed increasing weight on her. As for her hatred and anger, this has clearly been growing on her because of all the horrible experiences that was subjected onto her and her loved ones by the authority. Each time Snow puts them in harms way her anger increases. It started with Prim's reaping, the threats and lashing of Gale, killing of Cinna, with the death of Prim being the final tipping point. Panem before her reaping was just as bad as when she was reaped again for the Quell, but back in the carefree days in the woods of D12 she would never go so far as to contemplate killing Snow, let alone being fixated on it. Although finding peace, unfortunately past traumatic experiences in life often leave scars that will never go away, as her epilogue pointed out.

About Peeta, he is just as much a fighter as Katniss. Where Katniss' weapon is her bow and arrow, Peeta's main weapons are his charm and his words. His charades on the pre-games interview are part of his battle to save Katniss and himself. As for his short lived alliance with the careers in the first book, being from a despised district he would have to use his wits end to win his way into the pack. His role with the careers was much debated, but is one which saved Katniss from an early death.

[Satsuma]

As for her hatred and anger, this has clearly been growing on her because of all the horrible experiences that was subjected onto her and her loved ones by the authority. Each time Snow puts them in harms way her anger increases. It started with Prim's reaping, the threats and lashing of Gale, killing of Cinna, with the death of Prim being the final tipping point. Panem before her reaping was just as bad as when she was reaped again for the Quell, but back in the carefree days in the woods of D12 she would never go so far as to contemplate killing Snow, let alone being fixated on it.

Hi again!  I am a little confused by what you're saying.  I didn't see Katniss's reaction to Prim's death to be about hatred and anger.  Her reaction is actually to become a "mental Avox", and become depressed and numb for a time.  She only lets herself become emotional over Prim's death when she's confronting Buttercup.

Also, why would you count Prim's death as an example of a time "Snow puts them in harms way"?  Snow didn't put Prim in harm's way, Coin did.   Or are you suggesting that she transferring her earlier hatred of Snow onto Coin, and that's why she killed her?  I think there was way more to Katniss's actions than just personal vengeance.  You can argue that both Snow and Coin are equally deserving of vengeance, but the real difference between them at the end of MJ, is that Snow has already been neutralized, whether he lives or dies.  Coin, on the other hand, is set to take the reins of power, and is still an active threat to innocents. 

About Peeta, he is just as much a fighter as Katniss. Where Katniss' weapon is her bow and arrow, Peeta's main weapons are his charm and his words.

I agree with this, but I'd say, "Katniss's main weapon is her bow and arrow".  While I agree that Katniss is a "hunter, fighter, and carer", most of the moments that touch people who feel inspired by Katniss, actually have little to do with her prowess with a weapon.  Especially in THG, her volunteering for Prim, her tribute to Rue, and her challenging the Gamemakers with the nightlock berries, are all accomplished without any weapons at all.  In CF, though she does use her bow and arrow to destory the arena forcefield, she also rushes to Gale's defense unarmed.  When MJ rolls around, while she does defend people with her bow and arrow in D8, and certainly uses that weapon to rid Panem of Coin, she also wins D2 over to the rebellion with her WORDS.

I think that our differences are really a matter of degree.  While you do acknowledge the compassionate, caring side of Katniss, it seems you were more impressed by the fiery, emotional, impulsive side of Katniss, and I just don't see that side of her to be as important as you seem to.

I guess one last quibble is your description of her days in D12 pre-Games as "carefree".  I think this only was the case before Katniss's father died.  After that, her life was far from carefree, but a daily struggle for survival, in which she couldn't depend on her mother to care for her, and felt the weighty responsibility of being Prim's protector.  We also know that Gale made the same kind of angry, hateful comments pre-Games that he does in MJ.  In THG, Katniss never says that she disagrees with him about the Capitol, just that she prefers to keep her mouth shut because ranting just scares away the animals, and she also knows they could get into trouble if overheard.  (BTW, I agree with Ivana that during the story, Katniss "goes from seeing the Capitol people the same way Gale sees them to seeing them as real human beings who might not all be bad"; her anger is directed at Snow, and perhaps others in charge, but not everyone who lives under their rule, even if they are technically "the enemy".)

Interestingly, we also know from THG that Katniss stops singing after her father's death, though we see some exceptions, such as when she sings to the dying Rue.  But despite the many emotional scars she is left with after the war, she starts singing again after Coin's death, and by the time of the Epilogue, she tells us the children know the song she sang to Rue by heart, and this means she must sing it to them very often.  While we know she still has bad mornings when she fears the good in her life will be taken away, the fact that she points out the bad mornings, means not all of them are bad, and she speaks of bad mornings, not even bad days.  She also acknowledges that there IS good in her life, which is the hope Peeta offered, that even after tremendous losses, "things can be good again".  While some people see the end of MJ as dark and depressing, I do it as ending on a hopeful note.

[lambstew]

Hate and anger is an emotional state. Even though Katniss said she walls off herself from things that may hurt her, she is an incredibly emotive person. Throughout the story she has taken hit after hit emotionally. The death of Prim tipped her over the edge, like you said out of numb grief, but also a degree of rage (and hysteria) when she ponders how a 13yo could possibly be sent into battle. Katniss is also an action person. Emotions drive her into actions, often recklessly with no regard for her own wellbeing. They drive her into stronger resolve, like deciding to become the mockingjay after learning Peeta was still alive. They also drive her into stirring words that touches the souls of everyone. Peeta's skills with words seems to be more thought out, whereas Katniss' came naturally to her and in her emotive state.

I think that the "girl on fire" theme is also a reference on the more fiery part of her character. Sheer determination and stubborness (hot headedness!) is a big part of her make up. While I admire her "cooler" humanitarian side, you're correct that I'm very much impressed with the firey side of her character because it shakes the world she lives in when everyone before her failed. I also believe that SC wanted to send us a message about the dangers of that fire when it's not fully controlled.

Katniss didn't initially know that it was Coin who killed Prim. Even Snow himself pointed out, she was too fixated on him to realise that. She only made that conclusion after some painful reasoning that almost drove her insane. Once that conclusion was made up, it was Coin who has to die. She would probably still want Snow dead but he was lameduck by that stage and as good as dead.

Katniss "goes from seeing the Capitol people the same way Gale sees them to seeing them as real human beings who might not all be bad"

I love how she sees her Capitol make up artists as harmless, silly children, or even as pets.

About "carefree", I don't think she struggled to survive the moment she discovered the riches of the woods and learnt how to hunt, fish and farm it. Teaming up with Gale helped things along even further. In fact, she could trade her bounties at the market for other luxuries and even bartered a goat for Prim, which in her mind would be another mouth to feed. Before learning to hunt she and her family subsisted and life was miserable. Yes she still had to care for Prim and there was the worry that her mum may drift away again, but after she found the woods she quickly belonged, and became a successful provider. With Gale she even found happinness. You could sense that in her in the first book before the reaping as she eagerly waited for Gale and made fun of Effie. Even the prospect of Prim being picked in her first reaping didn't faze her as she saw the odds were so low. In her more stressful times it's always the thought of the woods that brought her calm. So that's what I meant by her carefree days.

[Satsuma]

So...this is my attempt to move the discussion on Katniss's level of attractiveness and charisma, that took over the "Jen Lawrence as Katniss" topic in the Hunger Games Movies forum.  Fans seem to disagree on exactly how pretty, beautiful, and charming Book!Katniss is supposed to be. 

I personally think that Katniss, as well as Peeta, are definitely in the top 25% when it comes to looks in Panem.  She certainly is not supposed to rank up there with someone like Finnick, who would likely be in the top 1%, or even the top 0.1%.  I think that some of the other specified-as-attractive characters, such as Gale, Glimmer, and Cashmere, are likely in the top 10%.  (Note that Gale is not only popular with D12 girls, the thoroughly Capitolistic Fulvia also comments on his good looks).

However, other people seem to think Katniss is "average", or just breaking through into the top 50%, as opposed to the lower 50%.  There also seems to be this idea that prep teams and stylists and camera crews can "airbrush" someone so much, that they can make someone who is not attractive at all, a stunning beauty.  To me, this interpretation almost makes it sound like Katniss is an "empty shirt" who owes all of her popularity to other people manipulating the crowd.  Yet, the whole "brainstorming" session in MJ, seems to imply the exact opposite, that people like Katniss NOT because of other people making her look good, or at least, not totally because of that, but because there is something about Katniss herself that they are drawn to.  (Though we can argue if that's her "inner beauty" and strength of character more than her outward looks.)

It does seem that Katniss does not see herself as that beautiful or charismatic, but we also know that Katniss is not the most self-aware person out there.  Haymitch also frequently denigrates Katniss, but I don't think this is meant to be gospel truth; yes, Haymitch and Katniss are very similar, but Haymitch doesn't seem to see HIMSELF as that great a catch, either, and I think this biases much of what he says to her.

This topic may already have been discussed to death already among the people who participated in the original discussion, but maybe other fans can give their input?

[lambstew]

To quanitfy a person's beauty as a percentile of population implies that beauty can be objectively measured as opposed to it being in the eyes of the beholder. Your top 25% could be another's top 10% or bottom 50%. There is no gospel truth about how beautiful Katniss is. The books do not provide any empirical measures of Katniss' beauty apart from that she has thin stature, dark hair, olive skin and grey eyes. What the readers judge on are from her own feelings and the reactions of people she touched. Haymitch loathed her initially and their relationship took time to develop. Finnick made fun of her looks. Gale sees her as a friend and survival partner first and foremost. Peeta became a goner because of her 'effect', but he could be more specific if beauty was what blew him away. Katniss seems to hold a low esteem of her own looks and strength of character. I mean, which average person doesn't feel the same from time to time? The picture that SC painted Katniss is one of outward ordinariness and simpleness, but inwardly she is powerful enough to survive adversities and effect drastic changes to her world.

There has also been discussion about how critical beauty is to the role of the Girl on Fire. There are 2 parts to this. First is the marketing by the Capitol. Second is Katniss' natural ability to inspire the people. With marketing, beauty and charisma definitely helps. This is why untold sums were spent on costumes, preps and surgeries. With the second, if you could identify people who have inspired you to become a better person or to champion a cause, then ask yourself if beauty was ever a factor in their ability to inspire.

[Satsuma]

Okay, maybe using exact percentiles was a little too simple, but if you're conceding that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", then it seems your interpretation of Katniss as an "average girl next door" and my interpretation as "not in Finnick's league, but definitely more attractive than just average" are both subjective opinions.  Which is fine, of course! 

I think, though, that SC does provide a lot of clues that many people found Katniss attractive.  Even Haymitch calls Katniss "attractive enough".   And though I agree with your implication that much of her appeal as the Mockingjay was based on the kind of charisma that isn't based on looks (and something many male political figures have had without necessarily being GQ material), I think much of the Capitol's obsession with the "girl on fire" and "star-crossed lovers" WAS based on superficial admiration of two young, beautiful people, for the most part.

Gale sees her as a friend and survival partner first and foremost. Peeta became a goner because of her 'effect', but he could be more specific if beauty was what blew him away.

I think that your point about Gale might not be that far off from the truth, that he confused his deep emotional attachment to Katniss as the girl he was closest to, as a romantic one,  and maybe they wouldn't have worked out as romantic partners long-term even if Katniss did return his feelings more.  (Ivana's made this argument as well.)

However, while I don't think Peeta's feelings for Katniss were primarily based on looks (and he continues to love Katniss even after much of her physical beauty is destroyed), he DOES mention Katniss's beauty in CF, though in a subtle way, when he says, after Katniss teases him about his weakness for beautiful things and says, "They would lure you into their Capitol ways and you'd be lost entirely", he answers, "Having an eye for beauty isn’t the same thing as weakness. Except possibly when it comes to you." (CF, Ch 15, p. 210).  (Though I'm sure SC meant for this to be an ironic piece of foreshadowing for Peeta's hijacking in MJ.) 

BTW, I always interpreted Peeta's "Ugh" at Katniss's Finnick impression that she does right before this scene, to be an expression of disgust at Finnick coming on to Katniss, not disgust at Katniss trying to be seductive.  I think that SC certainly meant for Peeta's feelings for Katniss to not be just an idealized "admiring from afar" kind of love, but to have an erotic/sexual aspect to it, at least by the time CF rolls around -- I don't mean he was attracted to Katniss in a sexual way at 5 years old!  But even Katniss wonders, after her first real experience with sexual desire on the beach, if that experience was new to Peeta as well, and seems to lean towards the answer being "no", that he HAS felt sexual desire when they were kissing before.  (Though she then goes on to be totally confused when Peeta brings up the "nights on the train" in MJ, and seems to think he's insinuating they did some sexual when they didn't, not getting that even if SHE didn't see what happened as sexual, maybe Peeta himself did.)

First is the marketing by the Capitol. Second is Katniss' natural ability to inspire the people. With marketing, beauty and charisma definitely helps. This is why untold sums were spent on costumes, preps and surgeries. With the second, if you could identify people who have inspired you to become a better person or to champion a cause, then ask yourself if beauty was ever a factor in their ability to inspire.

I also wanted to quibble a bit here, if you're stating that Katniss herself was subjected to any surgeries (as opposed to RL celebrities who are marketed the way the Capitol marketed Katniss). While the Capitol doctors did "body polish" Katniss and erase her scars, I don't count that as plastic surgery -- not that they didn't consider it, but my reading of THG is that Cinna and Haymitch managed to talk them out of it. 

[lambstew]

Beauty is indeed in the eyes of the beholder. The Capitol's ever changing idea of beauty would clash with those of the districts (with all those puffed lips, dyed skins and cat eyes). Since we can't see Katniss our judgement is based on what SC tries to portray the character and how everyone sees her. With the way SC portrays Finnick I think we all agree that despite what the beholder may see, Finnick will indeed be hot to anyone. Katniss on the other hand, is far less clear, hence the conjectures. I think this is SC's way to paint her as normal as possible. Katniss own view of herself, however lowly esteemed, can't be totally ignored. I take what Haymitch said of "attractive enough" as that she's not repulsive looking and with proper mentoring and marketing can still win the sympathy of the crowd. What the Capitol crowd saw in the "Girl On Fire" and "Star crossed lovers" are in the context of Katniss in Cinna's creative firey costumes, the prep's make ups, the gamemaker's promotions, and perhaps even a fearless spark in her eyes, all these together with the romeo-juliette drama of a young couple in love complement her overall appeal to the audience. I'd say a tribute's appeal would be very similar to that of questionably talented pop artists in our world where style and image drive their insane popularity.

Peeta like you said is very subtle about his weakness for beautiful things. One thing we found out in CF is that he is a highly talented artist. Artists also tend to seek deeper meanings compare to normal people. Maybe that's why we find him subtle with his references to 'effect' and 'weakness'. The beauty he finds in Katniss is more than just skin deep, with his continue love for Katniss at the end of the book demonstrating that. His ability to enchant people around him, esp the Careers, would require him to see and sense a person at a level ordinary people would struggle to. Although when he was still heavily hijacked, he said something that was terribly frank, and which added to the vibe that I have, is that he told Katniss that she isn't all that good looking, something that hurt Katniss deeply. It's debatable whether SC meant the relationship to be in anyway erotic. Her portrayal of Peeta is one of strength physically, emotionally and morally. A non-erotic relationship would show that his love for Katniss is more than driven by lust. Katniss might have had that lustful feeling in the cave and on the beach, but Peeta seemed to be as steady as a rock in both scenes! (I need to read up on the nights on the train scene you're talking about)

About the surgeries, Katniss was indeed subjected to surgeries to remove the scars and heal her deaf ear. I don't think we need to quibble over the fact that the Capitol is OBSESSED with plastic surgeries as a fashion trend and a marketing ploy. "No matter that she has just survived the slaughter of 22 other children, the Girl on Fire just has to be perfect and sparkling for the post game interviews!" The breast enhancement was ordered onto her without her consent. Had Haymitch not been watching out for her this would have been carried out. In contrast, D13 did not polish up her smallish wound in the forearm and let it scar up. It's a combination of their ingrained discipline and their pragmatism. In a militaristic culture, being battle scarred may be a sense of pride for them.

[Ivana2804]

Peeta like you said is very subtle about his weakness for beautiful things. One thing we found out in CF is that he is a highly talented artist. Artists also tend to seek deeper meanings compare to normal people. Maybe that's why we find him subtle with his references to 'effect' and 'weakness'. The beauty he finds in Katniss is more than just skin deep, with his continue love for Katniss at the end of the book demonstrating that. His ability to enchant people around him, esp the Careers, would require him to see and sense a person at a level ordinary people would struggle to. Although when he was still heavily hijacked, he said something that was terribly frank, and which added to the vibe that I have, is that he told Katniss that she isn't all that good looking, something that hurt Katniss deeply.

But what reason is there to think that hijacked!Peeta was more frank and truthful than Peeta from THG and CF? This idea usually comes from those fans who think that Katniss is a terrible person and that Peeta only used to say nice things about her because he was blinded by love or idealized her, and that all the bad things he said about her personality when he was hijacked are the true picture of her, while the things he said before are not true. I think that everything he said in both cases was at least partly true, none of it can be said to be untrue, but if the earlier truths were selective and focused on the positive, the things he said when he was hijacked were selective and focused on the negative. I don't think that Peeta thought during CF "oh well, Katniss is not that good-looking, but she has inner beauty" or that he would call her beautiful just to imply that she's a wonderful person.

And when hijacked Peeta gets a look at Katniss and says: "You're not very big, are you? Or particularly pretty", what is she comparing her to? He already knew what Katniss looked like - she was all over his fake memories, in addition to the real ones. If he didn't have images of Katniss in his head, trying to kill him and being awful to him etc., he wouldn't have believed that she was a mutt who tried to kill him. It's not like he had just seen her for the first time. Satsuma interpreted this, and I think she was right, as Peeta comparing the real Katniss to the Katniss of his memories, who was "bigger" and more beautiful - like Katniss from the props and the Capitol footage (where, as Katniss herself notes, she looked taller, confident, gorgeous - the Katniss with full makeup and her hair styled and the camera making her look better) with some of his feelings maybe also painting her as this femme fatale figure who lied to him and broke his heart. Everyone's regular, everyday self with no makeup, especially when they've been ill and worn out and not feeling very well, will look "not so pretty" when compared to the made-up and dressed up and beautifully shot version of oneself. Beautiful models will look "not so pretty" when you see them in paparazzi photos after you've been used to seeing super-beautified versions of themselves on the covers of magazines. And Katniss' retort to Peeta is "You've looked better, too", which implies that she took it as a judgment of her current looks, not her looks in general, since she doesn't retort with something like "You're not such a looker, either" but uses a statement that implies that he's not looking as good as he did at other times.

It's debatable whether SC meant the relationship to be in anyway erotic. Her portrayal of Peeta is one of strength physically, emotionally and morally. A non-erotic relationship would show that his love for Katniss is more than driven by lust. Katniss might have had that lustful feeling in the cave and on the beach, but Peeta seemed to be as steady as a rock in both scenes! (I need to read up on the nights on the train scene you're talking about)

They were making out on the beach for a very long time - it must have been something like at least 40-45 minutes, since they were only stopped by the lightning striking at midnight (and then Finnick). But you think that Peeta felt no desire for Katniss? Why would he be doing it then? When they have sex at the end of Mockingjay-pre epilogue, do you see this as Peeta just going through the motions and "thinking of England" to make Katniss happy? I don't see where you're getting this idea of Peeta not wanting Katniss sexually. It sounds like you're saying, if a male/teenage boy isn't trying to rape a girl or trying to feel her out or nagging her to have sex with him despite not wanting to, he must be asexual. We don't get the descriptions of what Peeta is feeling during those scenes because we're in Katniss' POV.

Furthermore, you seem to be saying that unless a relationship is strictly platonic, it must be driven solely by lust; no middle ground there, and that since Peeta is portrayed as being physically, emotionally and morally" strong, he is likely to be asexual, since sexual desire is incompatible with emotional and moral strength? Maybe that's not what you meant to imply, but it sounds like that.

[lambstew]

But what reason is there to think that hijacked!Peeta was more frank and truthful than Peeta from THG and CF?

I didn't say that he was more or less frank when he said that to Katniss. It was just that it was really and cruelly direct to the point without any subtle references to things like "effects" that would leave people guessing. Peeta was severely incapacitated by the hijack, even reduced to instinctive actions, and his ability to interpret a person beyond face value may well be lost at that stage. I grant you that he was comparing her with what was sown into him by his hijacking captors. With the D13 propos that Katniss saw, it's not as if she wore make up 95% of the time and now that she doesn't wear it she found herself unattractive. She knows how she normally looks like back in D12, which is pretty close to beauty base zero, and it's how she sees herself as. When faced with the propo image she couldn't relate that sexy looking person to herself. This underscores the power of the "packaging" in forming public perceptions. Had the public not been touched by her in her pre-made up state (i.e. at the reaping, during the games) could the public relate to her in her ordinary state? Like you said, we probably wouldn't if we see a supermodel without the make ups.

Finally about the erotic/sexual nature of their relationship. I didn't bring this topic up as I didn't considered this part of their relationship to be important to the topic. I'm not sure about the 40-45 minutes duration as they were having conversations and sharing light hearted moments with the other allies before the kiss. What makes you think I think Peeta has no desires for Katniss? From my 3 sentences you took my points to the far extreme which is why you see I offered no middle ground. Wanting her sexually? You mean when he was a goner at 5-6 years old he wanted her sexually then? I grant you that we have no privilege to what was on Peeta's mind during the kiss. I'm sure that he would have that warm fuzzy feelings at that moment, but would he or she go any further if they were alone? Would Peeta not have full control over his primal urges and just wanted to freeze the moment forever? They have shared many private moments together but things never turned sexual.** Would you think I'd say there's no romance there? There are plenty of people in today's world who do believe in no sex before marriage, and that sex is for procreation. District 12 is a very rural and conservative society, medieval even. Katniss believes a romantic relationship requires them to get married and have children. Hence her reluctance to be with Gale after that kiss. Are these people "asexual"? Then there are the quaint traditions and ceremonies with weddings in D12. This is how people in D12 see relationships. Love in its most conservative form. The book didn't address it, but considering the conservativeness, the risk of their kids getting reaped for the games, the assumed lack of contraception due to impoverishness, and just the sheer struggle to keep themselves from starving, somehow I don't think a sexual relationship would have worth the risk of a pre-marital pregnancy. In 21st century settings the outcome could be so much different for Peeta, Katniss and Gale, but then The Hunger Games would just be a reality TV show about tributes cooking up bad food.

** Some suspected they did have sex in the final love scene when Katniss used the word "afterward". Fanon.

I'd like to point out that I'm no Katniss hater and rather than seeing her as a horrible person I have stated in another post that she is my favorite character. Hence my effort in trying to picture her as how I would see her in person taking into account both the good and the not so good. Forming such pictures through the subjective angles of various characters is difficult if not impossible. When it comes to a character as polarising as her it sure draws out a lot of debates and opinions.

[Ivana2804]

Finally about the erotic/sexual nature of their relationship. I didn't bring this topic up as I didn't considered this part of their relationship to be important to the topic. I'm not sure about the 40-45 minutes duration as they were having conversations and sharing light hearted moments with the other allies before the kiss.

I don't know how long it lasted, but I doubt that they went to keep guard only after 50 minutes of conversation with other Tributes, spent several minutes talking and then were just kissing for a minute or two when the lightning struck and Finnick woke up. The quote from the book:

I feel that thing again. The thing I only felt once before. In the cave last year, when I was trying to get Haymitch to send us food. I kissed Peeta about a thousand times during those Games and after. But there was only one kiss that made me feel something stir deep inside. Only one that made me want more. But my head wound started bleeding and he made me lie down.

This time, there is nothing but us to interrupt us. And after a few attempts, Peeta gives up on talking. The sensation inside me grows warmer and spreads out from my chest, down through my body, out along my arms and legs, to the tips of my being. Instead of satisfying me, the kisses have the opposite effect, of making my need greater. I thought I was something of an expert on hunger, but this is an entirely new kind.

It's the first crack of the lightning storm—the bolt hitting the tree at midnight—that brings us to our senses. It rouses Finnick as well. He sits up with a sharp cry. I see his fingers digging into the sand as he reassures himself that whatever nightmare he inhabited wasn't real.

“I can't sleep anymore,” he says. “One of you should rest.” Only then does he seem to notice our expressions, the way we're wrapped around each other. “Or both of you. I can watch alone.”

Sounds like a long, intense, passionate make-out session, doesn't it? And it was even obvious to Finnick, who's done a lot more than that.

What makes you think I think Peeta has no desires for Katniss? From my 3 sentences you took my points to the far extreme which is why you see I offered no middle ground.

These lines that I already quoted:

It's debatable whether SC meant the relationship to be in anyway erotic. Her portrayal of Peeta is one of strength physically, emotionally and morally. A non-erotic relationship would show that his love for Katniss is more than driven by lust. Katniss might have had that lustful feeling in the cave and on the beach, but Peeta seemed to be as steady as a rock in both scenes! (I need to read up on the nights on the train scene you're talking about)

What else did you think by that?

Wanting her sexually? You mean when he was a goner at 5-6 years old he wanted her sexually then?

No. I think he wanted her sexually when he was 16-17.

I grant you that we have no privilege to what was on Peeta's mind during the kiss. I'm sure that he would have that warm fuzzy feelings at that moment, but would he or she go any further if they were alone? Would Peeta not have full control over his primal urges and just wanted to freeze the moment forever?

So you do think he had some urges to do more than stroke her hair?

They have shared many private moments together but things never turned sexual.**

Because Katniss didn't feel sexual desire, and Peeta would not initiate things since he believed that she didn't have romantic feelings for him and that she was forced to be a relationship with him, which would have made him reluctant to try anything, for obvious reasons.

Would you think I'd say there's no romance there?

No. I would say that those scenes were romantic and intimate. But things did turn erotic (although without "going all the way") on the beach, and I don't know why you're trying to deny that.

There are plenty of people in today's world who do believe in no sex before marriage, and that sex is for procreation. District 12 is a very rural and conservative society, medieval even. Katniss believes a romantic relationship requires them to get married and have children. Hence her reluctance to be with Gale after that kiss. Are these people "asexual"?

Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. It's a wrong question to ask. What these people are is conservative. That's not sexuality, that's attitude to sexuality. As for sexuality, they may be heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or asexual and still be conservative and believe in marriage and no sex without marriage, or be liberal, or be whatever. Asexual means having no sexual desires or an aversion to sex and sexual relationships.

Then there are the quaint traditions and ceremonies with weddings in D12. This is how people in D12 see relationships. Love in its most conservative form. The book didn't address it, but considering the conservativeness, the risk of their kids getting reaped for the games, the assumed lack of contraception due to impoverishness, and just the sheer struggle to keep themselves from starving, somehow I don't think a sexual relationship would have worth the risk of a pre-marital pregnancy. In 21st century settings the outcome could be so much different for Peeta, Katniss and Gale, but then The Hunger Games would just be a reality TV show about tributes cooking up bad food.

Now, this is fanon. All we know is that Katniss thinks of romance as love that leads to marriage and having children. There's nothing to suggest that everyone in District 12 believes that; there's even less evidence that people in District 12 believe in "no sex before marriage!" or for that matter, that Katniss herself is against sex before marriage with someone you'll eventually marry, or that anyone finds it shameful if people have sex before/outside of marriage. We also know that Gale was making out with girls (and I don't think he was just bragging to make Katniss jealous; but even if he were exaggerating, it shows that it wasn't considered such a shameful and awful thing to do).

As a matter of fact, there's more evidence in the books of the Capitol having conservative sexual attitudes, not the Districts, contrary to the popular fanon that Capitol is more sexually free and that District 12 is all conservative and traditional. It's the Capitol people who gossiped about Peeta and Katniss sleeping in the same bed on the train (despite the fact that they were officially engaged!) and it's for the benefit of the Capitol people and Capitol sponsors, not the people in the Districts, that Peeta told the story about Katniss' pregnancy, which was prefaced by the story of their wedding, to make it acceptable. How does that fit with Finnick's status in the Capitol and his well known relationships with rich Capitolians (minus the prostitution part, which is apparently too unacceptable so it was kept secret from the public)? Easy, that's good old hypocrisy of the rich and powerful, who have different rules for themselves and for the poor populace, and always did in every society in history.

** Some suspected they did have sex in the final love scene when Katniss used the word "afterward". Fanon.

"Suspected"? I don't think there's anything to suspect, it's obviously implied, just in a coy way. What else do you think the "so, after" part was referring to? That's like saying it's fanon that Peeta was physically abused, because Katniss saw him with bruises the next day, but didn't see his mother hitting him, so maybe he just fell down the stairs or bumped into the doorknob.

A couple of other comments from the other thread that I forgot to make:

- Re: Darius and whether he was just bragging. He wasn't really offering her to buy his kisses, that was a joke and his way of flirting. He was flirting with her because he was attracted to her. Katniss may not have understood that, but Gale did. And Katniss probably just took it as a joke. Had Darius said that he wanted to buy Katniss' kisses, it would have sounded really creepy and offensive and dangerous, since he was the Head Peacekeeper, the one with power, and it would've sounded like he wanted to do with her what Cray was doing with the hungry women.

- Re: Boggs' sexuality. It's not really important, we don't know what it was, and I agree with both you and Satsuma that that line was not about Boggs' sexuality but about Finnick's attractiveness. However, your argument that Boggs couldn't be gay because he had a "macho" profession is pure stereotype; it's like people saying that Cinna must be gay because he's a stylist. It's not like there aren't many gay soldiers (what is the "don't ask, don't tell" policy about); and historically, many Spartan warriors, for instance, had open homosexual relationships (even though the word was not used back then), at the time when homosexuality was seen as perfectly compatible with being "a real man". Finally, we have no idea what the attitude towards homosexuality and bisexuality is in Panem - whether it's closer to that of today's USA, to that of today's Saudi Arabia, or to that of ancient Greece.